Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: One of the challenges that a lot of guys feel with traditional masculinity is that the women in their lives perpetuate the expectations of what it means to be a man. That guys maybe feel like they can't cry because their partner doesn't have the patience to sit with their weakness, or that they can't express uncertainty because their partner will find that to be a turn off. And when we talked earlier about what are some of the qualities of masculinity, a lot of what I said was confidence, purpose, direction. And so if a guy expresses a lack of any of those, there is a fear that he will not be perceived as valuable or as a Mandev.
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[00:01:59] Speaker D: Welcome back to 3564, a podcast for the middle. I am so excited to welcome Ian Thatcher back to the podcast. We have so many interesting things we're going to dive into today. The main theme of our conversation has to do with men and how difficult it is for men in the here and now to know what does masculinity mean? How should they approach this, that or the other? It's very confusing when they're getting so many mixed signals of who they're supposed to be, how they're supposed to act, and what makes them a man. We talk about all sorts of angles of how women can best support men in their life, how men can show up and navigate some of the biggest challenges they have right now. And we also explore what he's seeing in his coaching business around where men are being challenged the most in middle age. I have one more really cool thing I want to mention, and Ian has offered a free 15 minutes consultation with him so you could better explore if possibly coaching would be a good fit for you. I can't believe he's willing to do that for everyone on the podcast, all of our listeners, I know so many of you are going to take advantage of this. I'll drop a note in the show, notes of how you can access this special offer from Ian. All right, let's jump in. Welcome to the show, Ian. It's so good to have you back.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be back here. I had a great time talking to you last time, and I'm looking forward to talking with you again today.
[00:03:54] Speaker D: Awesome. Well, I have some interesting questions for you that we hear all over the place about what is it like to be a man nowadays? What is masculinity? What are some of the unique challenges that men are having in middle age? So many questions about men, how the men in our lives, and I speak from a women's perspective, can be supported. And then how can you speak directly to our male listeners about some of the things that, you know, they're struggling with? So we have so much to unpack today, and I think you're the perfect guest to kind of go through some of those things.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Well, tldr, it's easy to be a man today. There's no challenges at all. And I guess that's the end of our show.
[00:04:48] Speaker D: Yep. Signing off. If you have any questions, just let Ian know.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I mean, it's such a great question. And I think this is, if you listen to our previous episode, I do behavioral health and wellness coaching, and one of the areas that I really like working with clients on is issues of masculinity and how men can show up in this world today and be our best selves. And I think just one of the things that I would just start off saying is so many guys that I work with want to show up as good men. They want to be good partners. They want to be good colleagues in the workplace. They want to be members of their community. And the expectations for what it means to be a man have changed a lot over the last, let's say, 30, 40 years. And the script that many of us were taught as boys for what it means to be a man doesn't apply as much anymore today. So I just hear from a lot of guys who are like, I want to show up. And I just don't know.
[00:05:53] Speaker D: I think back to some of the transformation in women in our particular pathway of first being able to vote and then having so much more say, in society than having a place in corporate life. And this sort of, I can be anything I want to be. And with that is so much power, and with that is so much overwhelm. I'm supposed to be feminine and floaty and loving flowers and pink things, and then I'm also supposed to roll into the boardroom and make decisions and be masculine. And there's a lot of confusion, I think, even for women right now, of what kind of role do we have in the typical gender roles? And then where do our men in our lives fit in those places as well? So many different questions. I don't know if I have a lot of answers, but definitely, definitely some thoughts here.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: It is so interesting because as we talk about masculinity and femininity or the evolution of feminism, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens with evolving expectations of men, with general societal evolution of societal. Like, what is okay, what is not okay. And so as we're talking about how men want to show up, it is, to your point, a lot of, for men, especially, I'll be men in heterosexual relationships, where women are holding perhaps more money making power, maybe, like, your wife brings home more money than you do, and now you're approaching being a stay at home dad. One of the things that we think about a lot is, like, how do we reframe some traditional masculine values to align with the relationship roles and dynamics that any two people have negotiated within their relationship? So for that one, for example, in particular, I think about the role of the provider, where a lot of guys, especially at my age, were taught, like, it is your responsibility to be a provider for your family. And in the eighties and nineties, that meant you bring home the big checks you are providing financially for your. For your family. But one thing that I was just working with a client with a few months ago is that he is unemployed right now. His wife brings home a much bigger check than he does, and they have a young child. And so we were talking about, how can he see himself as the provider within that context? And so he started to reframe what it meant to be a provider. Instead of just necessarily bringing home money, it was providing for his child. It was providing for his wife so that she could be successful in her career. And that took him a little time to reframe because it wasn't how he had expected to show up as a man. And I think a lot of guys are going through changes like that.
[00:08:55] Speaker D: Yeah, what a good example. I personally know a dear friend of mine who has transitioned into being a full time dada while his wife excels in her career, continues to get more education, you know, climbing the ranks in her particular job. And I think it's going to be interesting to watch him. He's a real manly man. And here we go. You know, here I am using some. Some words like that, you know, the typical, you know, strong, big, and I can solve all your problems kind of person. So. But, you know, what do you think is masculine nowadays? How is that even defined?
[00:09:36] Speaker A: If I had the answer to that question in one silver bullet, I think I would be a bajillion.
I think what really it comes down to is self confidence. And whatever your way of expressing yourself is, to me, it is being true to that inner core, you know? And an authentic man can look like a hundred different things. He may have painted fingernails and wear a pink dress. He may be in a pinstripe suit in a boardroom. He may be staying at home with his kids. But it is revisiting the why and the purpose, and that is what I think a lot of people associate with masculinity, whether they realize it or not. There's a sense of drive and purpose, conviction, confidence, stability. And all of those things can be applied to however you are expressing yourself or however you are living your life. And so I think for a lot of men, it's just finding that and honoring that and being in touch with what that is and then being confident, expressing, and putting yourself out there. But that can be hard.
[00:10:49] Speaker D: It can. And I also want to say, with the changes in the norms, meaning the feminine and the masculine, there are still a lot of people who are successfully navigating life in those traditional roles. There's actually a huge trend right now on Instagram around trad wife hash tradwife. That's traditional wife. And this kind of going back in the day of really taking on what the classic feminine behavior would be, and I thought that was kind of interesting. It was the extreme version of what it was probably like in the early 19 hundreds or 18 hundreds. But there is a lot of confusion out there because there's so many different things that work for different people.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like I'm imagining a marriage between cottagecore and trad life, and we have this whole Instagram aesthetic.
[00:11:52] Speaker D: I know, but, yeah, I mean, I.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: Think that really, especially when I come. When it comes down to men in relationships, what I think is really important is having the intentional conversations and negotiating roles that are specific to that relationship. And one of the challenges comes when either or. Both parties have assumptions about what the roles will be and they don't discuss them. And then you get, yes.
Why didn't you do the laundry? Well, it's not my responsibility to do the laundry. Oh, well, let's have a conversation about how we get the laundry done in this household so that we can have a way that works for us.
[00:12:34] Speaker D: Yeah. I had a funny thing happen just last night. I'm going to tell you this story. So my boyfriend did our laundry. I throw some of my dirty stuff into his basket and he washed it and he folded all of his things and put them away, but he threw all of my stuff on the bed. And I said, what happened here? There's no full service.
And he's like, well, women will put their own stuff away. And I thought it was so funny because he washed all my clothes, but he just didn't do that final step because he just didn't think it was his job. And I wasn't offended so much as I giggled and laughed. I love it when anyone does my laundry. I'll take it all day long, even if it's not folded.
But, yeah, it's the clear communication about roles, expectations, and making sure that your partner, or even colleague or whoever it is that you have very close interpersonal relationships with, that everyone knows that the role they need to show up and play in your life to have a healthy dependent, or not even dependent, but just a healthy back and forth between all your important relationships.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: Yeah. An interdependent relationship.
[00:13:58] Speaker D: An interdependent. That's the word.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: It's funny because with my girlfriend, she put her stuff in my laundry. I washed it and then tried to fold it, and she was like, you folded it all wrong. So you can't win.
[00:14:12] Speaker D: Yeah, you can't win them all.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: But, I mean, that goes back to like, okay, cool, let's have a conversation about the laundry.
If you want to fold in a particular way, you fold it, I'll wash it. But whatever you agree to can then be something that you work on together. But that does actually bring to my mind the idea of emotional labor, which I think is something that's really important to talk about when we're, when we are talking about responsibilities within the relationship, because there are a lot of invisible things that either partner will do, but traditionally have fallen more on the female partner in a heterosexual relationship that a lot of guys don't realize. And a lot of guys will get into this pattern where they'll be like, just tell me what to do. And I'll do it without realizing that tell me what to do involves 15 steps, and it's not as easy as just tell me what to do. It is having a mental inventory of what might need to be done, figuring out what tasks one partner will do and that the other person needs to do, and then figuring out how to actually go about them or how to communicate that. Whereas a lot of guys will just say, tell me what to do and expect they're good at doing it, but aren't thinking about or seeing the work that goes into creating that list or being aware of sort of the other responsibilities. And so I think one area that a lot of guys could work on is trying to be more proactive in observing what needs to get done or even having a conversation about, hey, what are all the things that need to get done upfront and then dividing that into a set of responsibilities, but being proactive and looking for ways to be helpful instead of being told what to.
[00:15:55] Speaker D: Yeah, I have heard that. Just tell me what to do. In my inner voice. My response is, if you love me, you knew what I, you would already know what I need. And of course, that's, that's not a fair comment and I've learned to work through that and then vocalize a little bit better. But the instincts from maybe a feminine perspective might be you should just know.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Or like, I want you to want to do the dishes. You know, it's like, well, nobody wants to do the dishes, but I want to do the dishes to help you. And then you get into this cycle of, like, wanting to help but not always knowing how best to help.
[00:16:38] Speaker D: Yeah, that's interesting. I have a question for you. I'm curious how you're going to answer this. I was walking with a bunch of my friends and a couple of my girlfriends, their husbands, and I said, yeah, I'm looking for some topics that I want to chat about that middle agers are interested in. And one of my friend's husbands, he said, I don't know how to respond.
When a woman in my office goes out of the office for two to three weeks and she comes back with new breasts and a facelift. Am I supposed to acknowledge it? Is that weird if I do? Because now I'm kind of like commenting on the way she looks, but if I don't, is that rude? And he was legitimately flustered about how to go about something like this. And then the woman came back and I asked him what he said and he said nothing. And now I feel uncomfortable and I felt so bad for him that it was so stressful, something like that. But is that something that would stress a man out nowadays?
[00:17:48] Speaker A: 100%. Absolutely. A thousand times, yes.
[00:17:51] Speaker D: Huh.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: I think to give some context, we talked in the last episode about how I had gotten divorced two years ago.
[00:17:58] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: And when that happened, I then found myself dating when I wasn't expecting to be dating again. And dating had changed. And one of the big changes was that the whole hash metoo movement had happened. And the expectations around physical touch, around showing the interest and being respectful in dating relationships, and especially in the workplace, had become far more sensitive, or it seemed at least to me, far more sensitive. And there was a greater expectation on men to thread this line or to walk the ridge between being respectful and sometimes having no interest that could be perceived remotely as sexual and being inclusive, warm, receptive and everything in every situation. And it is really hard, especially in a situation like that, where if someone has come back with new breasts and a facelift, what is the comment that you could say that will acknowledge, hey, you invested in yourself, you took action that hopefully represents a beautiful inner version of you that you can now put into the world without being creepy and like, ah, great moves, you know, like it is, it is a really difficult thing. You know, I, if I were in that situation, I might just say something like, hey, you look great, or, you know, just like really bland, leave it at that. And so you acknowledge that there is this change, but you're not going into any depth, you know?
[00:19:37] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: I don't know. That's hard. That would stress.
[00:19:41] Speaker D: That is a hard one. That is a hard one. Another one. Another then has been chimed in during this conversation and said, yeah, some women have been losing a lot of weight there. They've, you know, taken Ozempic, which is, you know, something that a lot of people especially means are accessing to lose weight. That's a whole nother topic, whether that's great or bad. But some of these people are now coming into the office and they've lost 30, 40, 50 pounds. And he said, am I supposed to say something? And here's what I said. I paused. It took me a good couple of minutes to regroup and I thought you could just say, you look really healthy and you can't go wrong with that. Right? That's not rude. You lost a bunch of weight. Wow. Or you look hot. Obviously not appropriate, but I could see how difficult it would be as a man to navigate what is sort of a basic human interaction without offending people.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: And I think you're this right on. And it's especially sensitive in the workplace where, you know, the reality is that men still hold a higher percentage of positions, of power, of leadership roles. That is changing. I am all for balance in the workplace, but there is generally still a power imbalance. And especially if we talk about men and then white men, there are a lot of guys who are in positions where they feel like they are sort of under the microscope or being scrutinized for every activity or every action or response. So how do you say something that seems you're genuinely happy for them? Let's say they do look healthy, or they do look happier, or they are looking just vibrant, and you want to say something and be supportive and just be a normal human. But also, you're like, man, am I going to get pinged for sexual harassment if I make a comment that is just slightly interpreted the wrong way?
[00:21:36] Speaker D: Yeah, that just sounds like walking on glass everywhere. What are some of the things that you personally have had to navigate around your masculinity and what's happening in the world today?
[00:21:49] Speaker A: There's a few things that come to mind. Number one is thinking back to, as I alluded to earlier, is dating after my divorce. And just simple questions of like, how do you make the first move? If some women want you to be confident, and some women want you to be maybe dominant or at least clear in your intentions, but some women want you to ask permission, and some women want you to be a little bit more timid is not the word I want to use, but it's the first one, the word that comes to mind, but slow, patient. That it goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the section of.
There's no one right answer.
I think one of the issues with masculinity is threading that needle, finding the middle path.
And it is called upon men to develop a higher level of emotional intelligence and being able to read the room. So, whereas before you could just kind of do what you wanted and get away with it, maybe in the eighties or nineties, now it is much more about being really able to get a pulse for what the person you're on a date with is feeling and whether they are interested or whether they're just being nice or whether you are really forging a connection and taking it to the next level in some way would be desired. And that is, I think, a skill that can be learned. It can absolutely be learned, but it is not something that all men have had to think about developing before. So that would be one of the things that comes to mind when you ask that.
[00:23:24] Speaker D: Yeah.
Ian, I have a story for you.
I dated as well after my divorce, and I remember going to happy hour and meeting somebody that I had met online, and we had had a couple of phone conversations, and the next step was to meet in person, and we met, and he was a lovely person, you know, someone that was really engaging and intelligent and, and good looking and by all means, successful. But there was no, for me, like, chemistry. I didn't feel anything more than, hey, he'd be a great friend. And that's not the feeling that I was looking for. And so we had good conversation, but to me, it was just me being nice and interested, because I was honestly interested in who he was. Just nothing. A romantic kind of partnership. And we walked to our cars, and I was like, hey. Bye. And I remember he leaned in, and he kissed me, and I was like, what the hell was that? Like? I was not expecting it, because I didn't feel like I put those vibes out, that I was interested. And I'll tell you what. It took me off guard, and I stepped back, and I walked to my car, and I said, I know he had good intentions. He's not a bad person. He wasn't trying to make me feel uncomfortable. I guess he just thought I was into him, and I was just being what I would call a normal me. And I could see how that would be really tough for men out there who are trying to navigate that.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: That story resonates so much with me, and I'm sure with many of our listeners who are either men or women who have had that experience from one side or the other. And it is really important to be able to tell the difference whether someone is just kind of being nice. And I think there are ways that you can sort of test that hypothesis. You know, if, instead of leaning in for a kiss, if while you were at dinner, if he put his hand on your hand and, you know, or on your shoulder or on your elbow, and you were like, oh, that's, like, not really what I'm looking for. Body language can tell you a lot.
[00:25:36] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: Or, you know, one thing that I just ended up doing is I just ended up asking women, can I kiss you before kissing them on a date? And it's so simple, and you can do it in a way that isn't just, like, awkward and, like, can I kiss you now? But is like, you know, it can be romantic, and it can be exciting, and you are asking for consent at the same time.
[00:25:57] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: And so I think that there are, there are ways that you can communicate. Reading body language is so important. I forget which statistic it is. They say, like, 82% of statistics are made up, but the vast majority of our communication is nonverbal. And so when we think about whether someone is interested, there are a lot of tells that we can read that will help us to understand. Is this a romantic interest, or is this person a genuine human who just wants to have a nice conversation?
[00:26:30] Speaker D: Yeah. Do you think that men in general struggle with emotional intelligence and things like body language?
[00:26:38] Speaker A: I want to say yes, but I want to caveat that with, I think that men have not been taught the, or have not. Society has not helped men to learn those skills. So when I say, like, yes, a lot of guys don't, don't know what to look for. It is not that they are incapable. It is that they have not been taught what to look for or how to do this. Another really important thing, especially when it comes to bodies, is that a lot of men are not as in touch with our own bodies as women. Whether it is because of, you know, your menstrual cycle and your body saying, hey, like, weird stuff is going on every single month for the majority of your adult life, you know, a lot of guys don't have anything that their body is telling them until they get an injury or until they get older, until something happens. And so women, I think, in general, are much more in touch with their and aware of their bodies than a lot of guys are. And that applies, I think that has a big impact also on being aware of emotion, because a lot of emotion we experience and feel in our bodies, you may be angry or stressed or anxious, and that may, you may experience that as tightness in your chest. And a guy might feel that as well, but not make the same connection to the emotion he is experiencing. Or may, it may be at a kind of, you know, anger is usually not a primary emotion, but is masking something else. It is maybe masking fear or anxiety or sadness, but a lot of guys aren't taught how to get past that first level and acknowledge what's happening beneath it. And so I do think that when we talk about emotional intelligence, a lot of it just has to do with a set of skills that many men weren't taught, but often, when we talk about it, want to learn and are easily able to learn, but it isn't something that their fathers or their male role models modeled for them.
[00:28:36] Speaker D: Yeah, that's such a thoughtful answer. I really appreciate that. Ian, how do you think that the women in men's lives can better support them with all these sort of blends of the masculinity, the femininity, expectations, what's happening in the world today? What are some of the things that the women can do to support the men in our lives?
[00:29:04] Speaker A: One of the challenges that a lot of guys feel with traditional masculinity is that the women in their lives perpetuate the expectations of what it means to be a man. That guys maybe feel like they can't cry because their partner doesn't have the patience to sit with their weakness, or that they can't express uncertainty because their partner will find that to be a turn off. And when we talked earlier about what are some of the qualities of masculinity, a lot of what I said was confidence, purpose, direction. And so if a guy expresses a lack of any of those, there is a fear that he will not be perceived as valuable or as a man, that the masculinity is so fragile that it could be broken by him showing even one moment of weakness or vulnerability. And unfortunately, I think that there is some truth to this, or at least that a lot of men have, have lived that experience, have had a female partner either lose interest or not have patience or not be able to hold the space for that man's emotion. And that is really hard, especially for guys who want to be expressing and exploring that aspect of themselves. There has to be the time, space and capacity to express those things. And it is a bit paradoxical because a lot of women say, I wish my man was more emotionally available. And I think this is often subconscious or not intentional, but often then don't know what to do with it if he does show those things or if he is showing a lack of direction, lack of self confidence. And so it's a challenge, I think, for men, because we're getting told we're getting asked for both at the same time. Be certain, be confident, but also be vulnerable and be sensitive.
[00:31:13] Speaker D: I heard the most interesting comment recently on a podcast I was listening to about expectations, women's expectations versus men's. And the comment was so interesting that this caller called in and she said she was trying to date. And she said, I want someone who is really successful, who has climbed the career ladder. They're an executive, they're in charge, they're powerful. And my last boyfriend I broke up with because he had no time for me. And the host of this podcast said, listen, if you want someone who is in charge of a lot of things and powerful and all these things that you just said you wanted, you cannot also have the other side of the spectrum, which means they're fully available at any time for you. It's just two different things. There's no congruency here in what you're asking for. It's impossible to meet your need. And I remember her saying, oh, my God, you're right. And so it was just an interesting observation and a conversation to listen in on, because a lot of the things that I think women are asking of men really lie on two different sides of the spectrum, and we can't have both.
[00:32:35] Speaker A: I think that is really insightful, and it is one of the challenges that guys are trying to navigate right now of how to be everything that our women are asking us to be and also be true to ourselves. And ironically, a lot of times, I think what women, I don't want to make sweeping generalizations, but what women may be attracted to is that following of your own goals. Like, what we find what is attractive is someone who is doing the thing that they're passionate about and want.
[00:33:10] Speaker D: Yes, yes.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: But at the same time, then there is the trade off of, like, that means that that is their priority and nothing me, their partner, although they may be a priority, but to your point, it's like love may be infinite, but there's only 24 hours in each day. And so you got to find the balance of what is true. Like, if I. If I am, if I'm going to live my best life and be, ironically, the most attractive version of myself, I also have to be true to myself and be prioritizing the things that fill my cup and are my priorities. And where I think a lot of guys get into trouble is that they sacrifice that in order to be what their partner wants them to be, which then can sometimes start this cycle of their partner losing the attraction that they originally had when that person was doing what they wanted to do. And so it's like this terrible cycle of ingest service, of trying to fulfill your partner's desires. You are actually undermining the relationship.
[00:34:20] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: That was a very convoluted way, I think, of saying that. But it is a challenge between acknowledging your partner's desires and balancing your own five minds.
[00:34:31] Speaker D: Yeah, you know, if I could, like, throw an emoji on the screen, it would be the mind blown one, because I actually. Everything that you said made so much sense just now. I can hear my girlfriends complaining in my mind about their partner, their husband, whoever it is, he doesn't have any friends anymore, and he doesn't have the hobby. He doesn't do this. And it's smothering, and it's just so interesting. And it's like, oh, wait, he was working on that project for you at the house all month. So that is real. Actually, Ian, it's a really great observation, and it always comes back to investing in yourself. What fills your cup, what makes you a better person is going to make you a better and ultimately more attractive partner when you're pursuing those things. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of our men listeners, and we have many, it's actually half of our audience is men. One of the things that it seems interesting as we go into middle age, is men have an aging process that's sort of different than women. You know, it's, it's okay to get gray hair. It's actually kind of sexy. And, and there's all sort of different expectations.
[00:35:54] Speaker A: Or lose your hair.
[00:35:55] Speaker D: Or lose your hair.
What, what are some of the things that middle aged men are struggling with as they age and in their bodies?
[00:36:04] Speaker A: I do think one of the things is what I alluded to earlier about as men start to age, we start to maybe have issues with our bodies that we now, we are not equipped to emotionally deal with. We may get injured, we may have issues with internal issues, some cancer diagnoses, whatever. The thing may be that, as I alluded to earlier, women kind of, I had a girlfriend's mom years ago who said this to me. She was like, you know, women's bodies betray them starting in puberty. And it is an expectation that your body's needs will impact how you experience life. But for a lot of guys, that just doesn't happen. Some guys don't go to the doctor for the first 30 or 40 years of their life, and then all of a sudden, you get an issue and you're like, oh, my God, I'm mortal. I am fallible.
My body isn't just going to go forever at 100%. So I think that especially when coupled with some of these expectations for men to be, maybe it's a provider, physically, maybe it's you're using your body for your work, maybe it is that. Maybe it's sexual or erectile dysfunction or other issues that guys associate with their value as menta. When those things start to, when issues start to come up, it can be a direct challenge to that sense of masculinity or just even identity of who I am and what I can provide to my partner or to my community or my work, whatever it may be. One of the big issues is just recognizing that we have value as humans. We have value as people, we have value as menta, whether or not we can do everything we could do when we were 20 and accepting, just like it is for anybody, for women and for men alike, that our bodies will change and what we're able to do will change. How we experience life will change.
That process of embracing that with grace is hard. And, you know, I certainly haven't always been able to do it with grace. I actually live with type one diabetes, so I have an insulin pump named Shelly. And so I have experienced some of this myself. And there are days when I'm frustrated that I have to have these extra concerns and think about things that some other people don't. And I think about, like, I had a thought once of, oh, you know, I'm type one diabetic. If I don't get access to insulin, that could be the end for me. And in my mind, I'm like, in the apocalypse, I would be a survivor, but I had to grapple with, like, oh, crap, if the insulin production is gone, that may be hard for me. And that, like, actually made me feel like, less of a man for a while.
[00:38:57] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:38:58] Speaker A: I really had to think about, like, okay, you know, like, I. First of all, pretty unlikely that's gonna happen. Let's just take that, you know, the apocalypse is probably not gonna happen tomorrow. Second of all, like, my value as a human is not determined by the fact that my pancreas decided to call it quits and that there are lots of things that I can do to live a healthy life, mitigate any kind of issues of access to insulin and other things that allow me to feel good and able to live my life. But there are ways in which we, as men, I think, need to accept changes to our bodies that are outside of our control.
[00:39:38] Speaker D: Yeah, that's such a good observation, and I really appreciate the authenticity. Our listeners do, too. I know they are. Are going through similar things. What are some resources that you can think of that middle aged men should be tapping into to learn more about themselves, to explore some of these concepts that we've been talking about? Do you have any favorite resources that you send men to?
[00:40:06] Speaker A: Yeah, really good question. There's a few things that come to mind. Number one, the book that started my journey on thinking more about masculinity, about myself. It's written by a woman named Liz Klein. It's called for the love of men. I cannot recommend this book highly enough. Go out and get it. It's really great. It helps to understand. I felt so seen as a man by this book that was written by a woman, and I felt really like, oh, wow, you know, I may not have some of these skills, but it's not that I'm a bad person. It's that the society in which I was raised didn't value teaching me this skills. And here are some of the impacts. And so really recommend that book and others. There's also the podcast we are man enough, which Liz Plank is a guest on or is a collaborator on, and so highly recommend that man enough project. And we are man enough. Really good. One of the big issues I think a lot of guys face is loneliness and male community, and especially finding ways to interact with other men that encourage healthy displays of or healthy expression of masculinity. So whether that is a men's group or joining activities that peers participate in, I am all for mixed gender activities, but I do think that there is a place for spaces where men can interact with other mendenne. And that used to be a much bigger part of our society. There used to be money, more fraternal organizations, and things in areas where guys would get together as men. But I think that has fallen away for a lot of men. And so finding community with men is really important. And especially men finding community in ways that support healthy, masculine, and one way to do that is kind of around activity. So I love woodworking. I have a wood shop. I've been doing it for 20 years, and I find that to be a really great, like, I'll take classes sometimes, I will teach classes sometimes. But that is a great way for me to interact with other people. Finding hobbies or interests that you can share with other men or finding, like, online men's groups. There are, if you. There's nothing right around you finding something online, but building community with other men, I think, is really important.
[00:42:26] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a great recommendation. And you're a coach. Do you coach men? Is that a path that you think would be ideal for a man who's exploring some of these things as well?
[00:42:39] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think that coaching and therapy are both really great avenues to explore some of this stuff. I personally love working with men on issues of masculinity. My coaching practice is really focused around folks who are kind of experiencing some of these transition in middle age and navigating their concept of self and of how they fit into their world and their relationship to work. And a lot of those questions are really relevant for a lot of men right now. So I love working with men on this. I will also say that for a lot of guys, first of all, therapy has been incredibly important for me. I have had a really great experience with lovely therapists who have helped me a lot on this journey. So I'm a huge proponent of therapy. And also some guys appreciate the little bit more tactical approach that coaching has, as opposed to the more open ended and past focus that therapy has of sort of working on the reasons for our behavior as opposed to what to do from here. Yeah, I think coaching can be a really great fit for guys who are working on.
[00:43:43] Speaker D: I love that. That's such a good observation. I do see how coaching in particular is a good fit for men given, you know, the action oriented Persona that men have instead of sitting and evaluating the past and all those things. I love to do that, but I definitely see why coaching would be a good fit. Ian, do you have any final comments for our listeners, particularly the men out there that you want to share with them?
[00:44:17] Speaker A: I think that it is. I cannot say strongly enough that men are not the problem. Men are good. Men are an important part of our society and have so much to bring to the world. But the way that we have been taught to act out masculinity in a lot of cases has not been helpful. And so I would just say to the guys who are curious about ways to show up better for themselves, for their partners, for their community, there are tons of resources out there and I just would really encourage you to not get too down on yourself just for being a man. Even though there are lots of things in the media about how men need to do better. I agree that in a general sense there is opportunity for men to improve. But men are not evil and are not bad. And we just have a lot of opportunity to learn and grow and show up in ways that are going to be helpful and healthy for us and helpful and healthy for those in our community.
[00:45:18] Speaker D: There's so many good insights here. Ian, I feel like I could talk to you forever. All of those books that you mentioned will drop in the show notes so others and podcasts actually, so you can access those. Is there a way for our listeners to get a hold of you if they're interested in learning more about you and perhaps your coaching services?
[00:45:38] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Check out Coach Thatcher, coachthacher.com. that is my website, the best way to get a hold of me. I have a lot of experience working directly with men, but I love working with anybody who is going through some of these life transitions and is asking themselves, how can I be the best version of you.
[00:45:57] Speaker D: That's great, Ian. I hope you'll come back. I know our listeners are going to love all of these insights. I have so many more questions, but I suppose I need to save them for another time. But thank you for coming. You are a good mandehead and all the things that you're saying are really helpful, not only for men, but for women. And I'm really impressed with you. So it's just good to have you here.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: Thank you. I really appreciate that. I love having this conversation, and if I can be helpful to anybody out there, I hope that my words have helped somebody. So thank you for the opportunity and I'd love to talk to you again.
[00:46:35] Speaker D: All right, thanks so much, Ian.
And that brings us to the end of another episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Okay, so if you haven't already, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss another episode. If you're loving what you hear. I would be incredibly grateful if you took just a moment to rate and review this show on your favorite podcast platform. It helps others discover us and it's a great place to share your thoughts, suggestions and ideas for future episodes. For even more exclusive content and detailed show notes, check out our website at 3504 DoT. And that's spelled out 3564 Dot. As always, a huge, huge thank you for spending time with me today during this episode. I appreciate that you tuned in. I'm going to leave you the same way I do every episode. Remember, it's not too late, you're not too old, and you're definitely not dead. Okay? Until next time, friends.
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