Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome back to 3564, a podcast for the middle. Today, I'd like to introduce you to Jeff Hetchel. Jeff is a motivational speaker, a coach, a business owner, and has had extensive experience serving the community, particularly here in Orange County, California, as a chaplain for Hoag Hospital in Newport beach. Also serving as the battalion chaplain for the Orange County Fire Authority. Additionally working with the Irvine Police Department.
He has so many stories, thoughts, and tidbits of wisdom that you can take away from the episode today and live a better life. Welcome to the show, Jeff. It is so good to have you.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: One of the things that I wanted to pick your brain about, because I think there's very few people who I could actually talk about these things with, is end of life experiences, spirituality, and all of the lessons that you learned during your time as a chaplain. And I am so fascinated to hear what you went through. What did you see? What did you hear? What were the regrets? I want to hear it all. So can you tell us a couple of stories about your experiences there?
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah. So I trained clinically as a hospital chaplain, and I'm trained as a trauma chaplain for the police and fire departments here in southern California. So one of the things I would do to build, kind of break the ice on a. In the emergency department is I would say to someone, hey, before I even said anything to them, I would say, hey, do you need a blanket? And we had this awesome blanket warmer in the emergency department, and pretty much everybody wants a blanket. So I would get a blanket, and then they would say, who are you?
I'm here. And I would say, well, I run the hope and courage department. So if you think about what a chaplain is, we run the hope and courage department. So even if I'm on the five freeway in the middle of a horrible thing, I'm not. I'm that place of calm, and I'm bringing hope and courage. Sometimes star firefighters, I mean, they. They usually, honestly are pretty busy. They don't want to talk to the chaplain that much. But there's definitely been times where I've been there and seen what they're going through, and I'm able to follow up with it. Police department, very similar. Will go on scene. Chaplains. I don't. Chaplains are not armed.
They're. They just have their vast minds.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: But we're, by definition, the state of California. We're non religious. So that's an important distinction. Like, I don't bring with me a particular religion to that scene. I bring with me hope and courage.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: And I bring a hand. So one of the touch is one of the most important things that a chaplain can do. And I'm not making eye contact. I'm looking down like this, but I'm like this. So it's a presence. And if you think about what a chaplain might provide, it's to provide a non anxious presence in a critical moment. So, gosh, it's going with somebody when they're having a heart attack to the heart cath lab or somebody standing with somebody's family in the back of the room while the hospital staff are trying to save their life.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: So I have all kinds of stories associated with that, and they can be funny. And I learned to deal with a large part of the patient load in an emergency department, especially on a Friday, a Saturday night would be drunk or mentally ill people. So I learned an important behavior, I guess, the better way to do it. I don't confront people. So, you know, I don't say, why did you do this?
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: But if I often. I'm often called because I got pretty good at it. I'm often called by the staff. Hey, could you sit with. Or could you help calm down? And I remember this one patient in particular who was just really drunk. And I walked in the room, and. And he was sitting there after he'd been assessed by our staff for, you know, just basically being drunk. We all. We all knew he was drunk. Some reason you have to prove everything in the emergency department. So, you know, he came back, his blood alcohol came back, and he was really drunk. And so I'm standing there with one of our staff members, and the staff member says, chaplain, I don't want to do this with this guy. And he looks at me and says, just like that. And I go, well, I'll stay here with you, and let's do it together. So what he has to do is get his wallet out so we can identify him, and he's awake. You know, you can ask him, who are you? But we have to prove it. And he, in his sickness, in his alcohol drug, and, you know, whatever it was that got him to where he was.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: He had had a major bowel movement in his pants. Okay. All over his wallet.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: So when we put our gloves on and, you know, we're grabbed, I grabbed the wallet, and I hold it up to the guy, and I go, this is your cry for help. You have just violated a major rule of life. You never go to the bathroom on your wallet. And when I said that, we all looked at each other and just started laughing, including the guy. So it's not everything in the emergency department's a crisis, but it's the secret sauce to working in those complex environments is to serve with our staff. So if I, from outside the room yelled in, how's it going in there with the guy who just went pooey on his wallet, that's one thing. But if I'm in there with someone and then it opens up so many doors, both with the staff member, the patient, and, you know, drunk people sober up. So when the drunk person sobered up, I had a great conversation with him about his life and was able to give him resources and next steps. Actually, the hardest moments of my life have been were during COVID as a chaplain, because Covid was uniquely horrible time for all of us. And now in my coaching environment, I find myself talking a lot about the impact of COVID and building resilience. And I don't mean so much having it, but even as I say it now, and you think back, can you believe we went through that?
[00:06:44] Speaker A: No. No.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Right. But you should know and be thinking about how you might respond. I had none of that, and I was the chaplain at that time at a really great hospital, and they think about the craziest things at a hospital. So I happened to be at the hospital the day the first patient in California came into our hospital, and I was his chaplain. Now, he spoke Chinese, and he was in what we call an ISO room. So it's a negative pressure room where you have to go into a little room, and then there's another door that's sealed, and it's just for stuff like this. So nobody knew what was ahead. But we had this first patient, he spoke Chinese and a little bit of English, and he had simply come from China to visit his family who live in Irvine.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: What could go wrong? Right. And he was our very first patient, so I knew at that point, this is going to be something that's going to change all of our lives, but it was to help feed our staff. So, like, one of the funnest, some of the funnest memories are, and I think, Karen, you were part of this, if I remember right. Yeah, but we. So do you remember when it first locked down, you couldn't. You couldn't get anything, and then when we. When a shipment of stuff would come in, our staff who were working 12 hours a day, the stuff was already gone.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: So a forward thinking leader in the hospital where I work said, I want you to get a bunch of stuff get a refrigerated van and just buy it for our staff. The hospital will pay for it, and we'll give it to our staff so that, because we need them to be there and working, not out shopping, finding stuff. And it was a brilliantly beautiful, simple plan, and. But it got me, again, out in the community, meeting people like, I found the most amazing bakeries. Like you think about, okay, where am I going to get bread during a global pandemic? Well, I could tell you.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Or I can remember going into a bagel shop and buying because they had no business, but they had eggs, all their eggs to give to our staff because nobody could get eggs.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Little things like that. So I think today I find myself as a coach, coaching all of us who've been through stuff we never anticipated that deeply, profoundly affected our lives. Marriages, you know, kids who. I was with this. I was with someone the other day that lost their high school graduation and then they lost their college graduation.
I don't ask people, hey, what were you like as a child and how. What jacked you up to get you?
I don't go back there. I start right here, right in the moment. Does that grab you? What questions come to mind?
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I think about when you visit or when you visited patients who were very ill, and inevitably, they.
Death is on the doorstep.
And I'm wondering if there's this certain level of. Or a common theme, if you will, that you experienced with all of these humans. Was it regret? Was it joy? Was it peace? You know, what was that like?
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know how many people I've been with, either when they die, right after they die, or right before they die, over. Over a thousand. I mean, so here's what I've seen. It's not like it is on tv.
Like, in the modern medical environment today, people don't die holding the hand of their loved ones surrounded by the bed. That. That definitely has happened a couple times where the timing is such that the family does gather, the family is there, but I would say normally they die intubated and on some type of major medication that they basically just fade away.
And I actually had an experience with this in my own life that I'd love to share with you guys.
So it's not quite the reflective.
Here's some words to live by, really. No, it's. It definitely, in all those deaths, one or two times where the family gathered around, like, the timing was perfect. So they're standing there holding in this case, I think, was granny's hand and. And her husband.
They're surrounded by the kids with the grandkids in the final row. That happened once, and it was the patient that wasn't talking. Right. So it was people saying, there's all kinds of little tricks of the trade that we do. Like, we'll have the family say someone's at the end of their life, it's okay to die. Which, as weird as that sounds, there are people with wills that are so strong, if you don't give them permission, they'll hang on x amount of time longer.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: In traumatic situations where, you know, life and death is hanging in the balance, it's a little bit different because that's a sudden event.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Normally in the vast, like, one of the surprises for me about hospitals is most people get better.
It. The vast majority of people that walk into a hospital, like, high 90%.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:12:18] Speaker B: Get better.
And there is. There is some that don't. Right. And in that family, you know, the. Whatever family craziness is going on in your life out there, or not your life, but not my life, but somebody's life.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: They bring that to the hospital. And so if they have family traditions, like, there's some family traditions and some that include some religious traditions that if you don't scream and yell at the end of a person's life, it means you didn't care about them.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: So that is really a bummer if you're in the hospital for a broken leg and the room next to you has a room full of screaming, yelling people, because they're just saying culturally, that's how they grew up, expressing grief.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: So, you know, in cases like that, I mean, I'm the person that's called to manage that and to move. You know, we've put families in different parts of the hospital so they could. They could maintain their tradition.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: But again, it's. It's many times people look at me and say, can you get my priest, my rabbi, my. And that's part of the chaplain's job. You know, it's not my job to be their rabbi. My job is to get their actual rabbi.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: And he comes running down and. And so it's. I would say it's more a facilitating role. And then at death, rituals have to be taken place, and I have to know those. I have to manage that part of some people have to be buried in a certain amount of time. I can think of times where things happened at death that I just.
I was blown away.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Really?
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Where I walked out, where there was a. There was something done. A lot of times, people will bring things in and they'll bring in pictures, and they'll bring in memories, and they'll tell those. And the chaplain, you can't see my hands, but the chaplain stands in the back quietly and listens. Right. And then what I'm waiting for is a need to be met. Do you need, you know, getting back to Martin Ateurs? I'm always looking to bring a blanket, a cup of coffee, something so you can have what you need at death, I think for us. So, you know, let's say now my parents are gone. Let's say you have older parents.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: The thing I would suggest to your listening audience and what we have tried to do in our family is to make known our preferences.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: It is not too early to have a living.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Yes. For instance, my best friend Andy, she was on the podcast quite a few episodes ago about Will's trusts. She's coming on again to do all of the medical piece for that. But she said that that's one of the biggest gifts you can give your family is your wishes for next steps should this happen. Do you want a service? Do you want to be buried, cremated? All these things no one wants to talk about.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: No. And talk about them. Right. So I think for me, as a chaplain, it's to normalize kind of crazy things.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: So, like, a hard conversation or. I. I was the chaplain. I helped start a hospice. Hospice unit. So not hospital, but hospice unit.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Right. Right after.
Right. Sort of in the midst of the COVID pandemic. And it was so interesting in that in that place, most of our care is in home.
So I was in charge of bereavement, which handles families post death.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: So.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Post death. And I was one of the chaplains, so. Which is in usually in a person's house. And, gosh, it was. It was amazing. It was just amazing. I can remember being in one person's house where the husband was dying and the husband and the wife were art collectors. After their kids left the house, they said, what are we going to do, honey? What should we do? And they decided, we'll collect art. Well, pretty soon, they're buying art that is, having to be brought from other countries by armed guards.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: And brought into their house. So this man, at the end of his life, wanted to be surrounded by some of his artwork.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:42] Speaker B: And I'm walking around after he passed, and really, it was kind of a relief. I mean, that's a surprise to me a little bit. Sometimes in death is there's relief. Like, the family goes, oh, man. We get our lives back, you know, our family members gone, but we have so many great memories, or it surfaces memories that they regret. A lot of regrets that as a life coach, I. Some of what I do now is I deal with people who've lost and are trying to get back into life, and I coach them. I coach him back into life, but so back to this man. So he's surrounded by all this artwork, and I look at this one picture, and I go, I feel like I've seen that somewhere. And I said, ma'am, is that a Rembrandt? She goes, oh, yeah.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Oh, my.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: And I said, gotta hear the story.
Because, you know, those are expensive.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, millions, right?
[00:17:38] Speaker B: And she goes, well, I know it's kind of weird. We got it at in Paris. We went to, you know, a few years back, and it came by FedEx and an armed guard.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: Oh, my.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: And I said, but then what do you do with it? She goes, well, we got the best bottle of wine in the house. We sat it on our couch, opened the wine, and just enjoyed it.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: I love that story.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. So death doesn't always lead to horror and chaos, I guess, is my point.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
I have often heard that there's a transitionary period between life and your body breathing and your heart pumping towards your body, and that presence not being alive anymore, that it's almost not an instantaneous thing unless it's a traumatic accident. But this almost fading of the spirit. I don't know. What do you think about that?
[00:18:37] Speaker B: I've thought a lot about that. I think. I don't know for sure, but I could tell you what I've seen, which is we have such advanced medical treatment in America today that our meds can keep a body going.
I don't know that the mind and the spirit are still there. You know, there's guys whose entire careers are based around what's known as clinical death, which is the cessation of brain activity. That could be a really big deal. That could be a really big deal. So I have seen.
I have definitely felt coldness in rooms at death. Just ice cold.
I have definitely felt good at death.
I'm not sure that I fully understand what that is, you know? And it could just simply be that death is a common but mysterious thing. So you might. When I tell you what I'm about to tell you, don't think this is, like, crazy or odd or whatever?
[00:19:44] Speaker A: No, tell.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: But I like, to walk through cemeteries and think about. So my wife and I, she recently retired and we went on a three week drive. Eleven states, 4500, 5000 miles. Crazy about. But we went to a couple battlegrounds. Remember Custer's last stand?
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: When we went there. And then we visited my parents grave in Santa Fe, New Mexico, at the national cemetery. When you walk down the rows, what you see is a name, a start date and an end date, followed by the dash in the middle. And so the dash is us here today. So I get really reflective at. At cemeteries. And when I do funerals, as a chaplain. You do a lot of funerals, you do a lot of weddings. You do a lot of everything.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Yeah, but, yeah, so. I don't know. I don't know. So what goes on between here and there? I don't know.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned cemeteries. I was having a conversation, I believe, with my mom, and we were walking and talking, and she has been a grief specialist as well, being an MFT. And one of the things that we were talking about was, wow, everyone thinks there's all this spiritual activity at cemeteries.
And she said, what about the hospitals? That's where I imagine all of this beautiful spiritual activity that we can't see.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: You're human and you experience the presence of God, presence of the almighty. I think aa, Alcoholics Anonymous has the best description of God, and it's. It's of your own understanding.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Oh, I like that.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So I. I'm a Christian. I didn't grow up in a christian home. I grew up in an alcoholic military home where my mom was a captain and my dad was a sergeant and literally in the United States Air Force. And. And they drank and everybody drank back then. Oh, and smoked. So they smoked cigarettes and they drank like fish. And that was normal. So I didn't grow up. I definitely went to a base chapel, but was led by a chaplain. Weird. I ended up doing that.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: And I think what I have come to believe, you know, is not what others have come to believe. And I'm okay with that because, you know, when you think about it as you look up into the sky, it's a pretty big thing, right? It goes on and on and on and on. So for me to say I know everything there is to know about God, I always thought, I don't think you do.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: But. So it's in that feeling of thin spaces. It's opened up other spiritual traditions to me where I accept them for what they are and I enjoy them for who they are. So I have a rabbi, Rabbi Rick Steinberg, and I serve with him as a police department chaplain. I worked with him the other day, and I call him my rabbi. I was visiting my grandkids up in the Bay area, and I just started feeling really weird on this first time. And I not only started feeling weird, but I started feeling, like, super anxious. Just feelings I'd never felt before. So I was supposed to babysit the kids that night, and I thought, man, I'm not. I can't do this. So I told my daughter and son, hey, you guys, I can't do it. And so I curled up on the couch, and little grandkids are bringing me water, blankets, you know, hey, pop, you're gonna be okay, you know? You got this. Well, they put the kids to bed. All of a sudden, I woke up and I thought, man, something's not right. And it's probably 930, 10:00 on a Friday night, by the way, never go to the ER nine or 10:00 on a Friday night, right?
[00:23:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: Well, so my son in law, who's a medical professional, my daughter, who's a nurse, he goes, we're going to the hospital, throws me in the car. And I really was so out of it. By the time we got there, I was sort of losing my mind. And what had happened was I had a virus in my spinal fluid.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: It was swelling my brain, you know, and I was becoming crazy, basically. And they thought I would taken some drugs, and I almost immediately started to feel better.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: No kidding.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Within 48 hours, I was out of the hospital. So they thought it was west Nile virus. They never really identified it. Okay, so medical mystery.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: That is weird.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: So then six months later. Six? Yeah, about six months later again, I lost a job. So my second job, the link here is I need to be a 1099 employee in my own company.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Karen, thank you.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: But I started feeling similarly that, gosh, you know, here I am about to lose this job, and it was sudden a surprise, right? When they finally get you, it's always sudden and a surprise.
But a friend of mine had this cough, and it was a time in southern California when everybody had a cough. So I remember thinking, hey, last time I lost my job, I almost died. But then I would wake back up, and I remember thinking, this is what death is going to be like, because I have seen it enough to know it's not quite like it is on tv.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: I want to tell you how much I love you. It's just like, no, you're wiped out. You're sick, close your eyes, and then the next thing happens. Didn't happen to me. So that's. Yeah, it has been my own journey lately.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Yeah. What have you learned from those two experiences? Have you changed any approach to life?
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I have. And it involves my wife and her commitment and love for me.
Her simply saying, you gotta figure this out. You know, we've been married 41 years now.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: And love is not what it was 41 years ago. It's way different and deeper.
So she became. And remember I told you she was a therapist.
You can't really be a therapist for your husband, but you can point him in certain directions. So I started to do what, for lack of a better word, would be called self care. Like, I. I went swimming just before I came here because I have to do things differently or nothing changes. So I added health coaches to my life.
[00:26:36] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: And a health coach is a fascinating field. So I have a friend, Tom. Cost him on x c o s s t o m c o s s. Tom is a registered nurse, but he's an economist.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: So he looks at the economics of healthcare. That's his.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Interesting, his focus.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was with Tom the other day, and he was giving me some coaching tips about, there's a field, a subfield now called longevity, which Tom is 72, but if you, you know, cut him in half and count his rings, he. He measures biologically at about a 60 year old, and it keeps going down.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: And if you look at him, like every time I see him, Tom, you look younger.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: How is this possible? So we're on the edge of, one of the upsides of the pandemic was we're all now really engaged in health.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Is there a spiritual principle that you think is key that you can share with our listeners to strengthen or to focus on the.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially during these troubled times right now. Yes, there is, Karen, thank you for asking.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: But it's. It's. Start with listening.
So start by listening. So if you find somebody in a different tradition than yours, don't start by expounding what your tradition is. Start by listening. Second, love. The reason love comes next is you're listening. You're actively listening with a true loving heart and knowing that their perspective is also love. So listen, love. Here's the fourth step. Learn. Soak it in.
There's nothing that somebody else is going to say to you that's going to threaten your faith or your core, but take it in, learn from it.
There's a lesson in there for you and then finally. And notice, I still haven't said do anything. So listen, love, learn. Still haven't said do anything.
Here comes the fourth one.
[00:28:48] Speaker A: All right, drum roll here.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: Except just accept that the way it is. So I use that at breakfast this morning.
I use that at Home Depot run. I used acceptance, where instead of judging everything, like right or wrong.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: So tiring.
I learned to listen first, love, then learn, and then accept. And, boy, I tell you, that has really revolutionized my life. This is in the last eight months. This is all coalesced for me. So the spirit of having open hands versus these kind of hands or this kind of thing, you know, where you're pushing away and come close, that kind of thing. Sort of a passive aggressive.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: Yeah, just.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: It's just hands like this. You know, it's a different approach.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: So that's what I love. That. That's. That is really powerful. Open hands.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Open hands.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jeff, I know that you've talked a lot about your coaching business and how that is thriving. What is the best way for our listeners to get ahold of you if they're interested in learning more?
[00:29:56] Speaker B: Karen, thank you for asking. Well, I asked Karen to put. You can reach me through LinkedIn. Jeff Hetchel. LinkedIn. Hetchel group. H e t S c h e l group.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: I told Karen I'd give you my cell phone number. She said, I don't do that, so. But if you go to the website, my cell phones on there.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: And that's the way, you know, I start with a free 15 minutes. So you call me and I can give you an assessment if I can help you help you or not. But I really appreciate the time. Karen, this has been a lot of fun.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I really appreciate your insights and wisdom. There are so many lessons that we can learn from others if we stop and listen and open ourselves to them. So thank you for these beautiful life lessons and also being so open about what is uncertain, which is end of life, and what happens next. I'm fascinated by that conversation, and I appreciate you coming to the table with your real experiences.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: You're welcome. Thank you.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: And that brings us to the end of another episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Okay, so if you haven't already, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss another episode. If you're loving what you hear. I would be incredibly grateful if you took just a moment to rate and review this show on your favorite podcast platform. It helps others discover us, and it's a great place to share your thoughts, suggestions, and ideas for future episodes. For even more exclusive content and detailed show notes, check out our website at 3500 Dot and that's spelled out of 3564.com. As always, a huge, huge thank you for spending time with me today during this episode. I appreciate that you tuned in. I'm going to leave you the same way I do every episode. Remember, it's not too late, you're not too old, and you're definitely not dead. Okay, until next time, friends.
