[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to 35 64, a podcast for the middle. Experts have identified six major stressors during middle age. Here's what they are. Marriage, divorce, having children, experiencing death in the family, moving, and last but not least, experiencing a career change or job loss or layoff. So if you have recently been laid off, or if you know someone who has, make sure to send them this episode. Today I want to introduce you to Tara McKenzie. She has an inspirational story for you that's going to give you some really great insight into what does it feel like to be laid off? What happens when you're laid off? How can you support someone in your community, in your family that has been laid off? And last but not least, some tidbits for those leaders who have given the unfortunate job of laying people off. I can't wait to dive into this episode with you. Welcome to the show, Tara. It is so good to have you.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I'm excited. This is awesome.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: I am too. Today we are here to unpack really all things related to being laid off. And I know that you have quite a story. Just within the last decade, even the last few years, of what has happened with your life. Six times, you have experienced a layoff for many different reasons. And what are some of the common threads? What happens? How do you feel after you get laid off?
[00:01:56] Speaker B: When it actually happens, it is still shocking. It's still devastating. When it occurs. You think you're prepared mentally. Again, you can see hints and things leading up to it. But when you get on that call, whether it's a zoom and you connect and you see HR, possibly your manager, on the this sinking sensation is really hard to describe. It's just like someone is taking the rug out from underneath you. And those few moments, generally, for those that might not be aware, those calls are very quick. They are not a 30 minutes phone call where you're talking in deep details about what's happening. They are short, they are curt, they are very to the point, and then click and you are left sitting again, if it's via Zoom, you're left sitting there in shock and really trying to digest what's just happened. And there's a phrase that we use, and it really bothers me, actually. It's the phrase where they say it's not personal, it's business.
And I don't know how much more personal it can get when you've just taken someone's livelihood away from them. And the amount of emotion and thoughts going through your head in those first few moments after the call, during the call again. I would say there's just a lot of shock, right? And almost disappointment, because you can kind of try to talk yourself out of, like, maybe this isn't going to happen. You know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're not on the list, so to speak, right? But when it does and you're left with those thoughts, it's. It's anger, it's disappointment. It's feeling like you have no value, right? Like suddenly the job that you've been so committed to and poured your heart into, they just say, thank you very much. Your paperwork is on the way. It is just a really disheartening low feeling to go through, and I don't wish it on anyone, let alone going through it multiple times. And again, that phrase of it's not personal, it just gets right under my skin. Because, again, how could it get any more personal than that?
[00:04:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was really, from an early age, really involved in my corporate career. I was all in. I worked long hours. I wanted to climb the ladder. And I remember at my young age, feeling like, you know, anyone who has been laid off clearly was not doing a good job. They must have been a low performer. They must have been not carrying their weight or something. I had a story that if you got laid off, you deserved it. Now, the funniest thing is, you know, the universe is always going to bring a lesson right back to you. When I was, I want to say in my late twenties, I had been at a high tech software organization for many years, and I was a high performer. I had recently been awarded this large glass award, and it said, global marketer of the year or something like that. I was presented this award by the CEO and all these executives on stage at a big event. And I was feeling like, I'm on the top of the world. I'm good at this. I know what I'm doing. And I got a phone call about three weeks later, and it was from a new boss. And there was a slight reorg. They were moving around budget. Being an employee in California meant that I was probably being paid significantly more than some of the others. And I was told, Karen, you're being laid off. We have a reduction in force. And I was so shocked, Tara, I said, thank you. I didn't even know what to say. I was so taken off guard. And I got. You're going to get a FedEx package with your closing paperwork.
We're going to shut down all of your access within a few minutes. And let's get your laptop back here, and the HR professional and my boss who were on the phone, they hung up. And I'm quite ashamed of this reaction that I had, but I literally pounded my fists on my laptop keyboard. A whole bunch of keys popped off, and I immediately took all these awards that I had received from this company and put them in the trash. And I was filled with anger. I felt betrayed.
I had rage. And that is not a common emotion that I experience. I'm normally typically pretty even keel. And I got that laptop boxed back up, included all the keys that had fallen off on it, shipped it back, and a couple of colleagues of mine had heard that the laptop was damaged. They reached back out to me, and I said, oh, it must have happened in shipping. So that is my story of being laid off. And I never thought of it the same. I never, ever thought of it the same. And I don't know. What do you think about that? Did you have those same feelings when you experienced any of those layoffs?
[00:07:47] Speaker B: And, you know, I would almost challenge you a little bit where you say that, you know, you're embarrassed by how you reacted. You should not be. What just happened to you in that moment is truly devastating. And so the last round of layoffs I was in, you know, they shut down my access even before the only thing they left open was zoom.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: No. So your access was shutting down on all your programs before you even knew, which I'm sure. Then you started guessing. Oh, my.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: And I had an inkling that maybe what they were going to do was to remove my layer and take my team leads direct to this new vp. But as the texts start rolling in, I'm getting just this long list of names. So I get on my call, which I expected. And I'd like to add, I was also in a hotel room by myself because I had just finished traveling for work, and I had just finished a celebration of how well our year went. So similar to you, where you have your award. I had stood up in front of the office and said, thanked the team for all their hard work, and then woke up in the morning to this happening. After I was let go, one of my direct reports was let go, basically directly after me. And I'm sitting in that moment. I'm trying to read now through my cell phone, right, of all, all the names. And I'm in a bit of shock over how long this list is.
And I get this text, and this is where I'm thinking of you when you smashed your keyboard. I get this text from the person who's just let me go a new vp, similar to your situation. And it said, I was very impressed by so and so. I don't know why, but I was impressed.
And the anger I felt holding that phone, the audacity to measure someone's impressiveness in how well they ate that sandwich, excuse me, that you just served them is so wrong.
Whether someone cries, whether someone is completely stoic, whether someone is very angry, that is not the measure of how impressive or how not impressive they are. What was impressive was the fact that this person killed her numbers repeatedly. That this person was navigating an extremely difficult sales force culture. With so many changes in sales leadership, there's a lot of new personalities. On a personal side, she was also navigating some very heavy personal issues. Still showing up for work, still killing her numbers. But she was brought right down to that core moment in that we did this to you. She reacted this way, therefore, she is impressive. And if I could have smashed a keyboard, I just held my phone and I was just shaking. I was so mad. And my response was shock that this person would reach out to tell me that. So I just responded with question marks. And I said, is this meant for me?
You know, did you really mean to send this to me in this moment? And I never heard from them again. That was the end of that communication. But she, you know, I talked to other people on my team, similar to you, where they felt, like, embarrassed because they started to cry. Some were let go, and this isn't uncommon on a call with multiple people. On the call, one of them was let go with, like, eight different people and had a total breakdown. She was completely thrown off guard, was not anticipating it at all, and she did start to cry. And so she texted me afterwards and said, I'm so embarrassed. I cried in front of so and so and the new vp, and I'm like, don't you dare be embarrassed. This is a big deal. This is devastating. Again, whether you cry, say nothing. However you respond, you're valid in that response.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
Tara, how do you think that we can call upon executives, managers, organizations to better plan and feel more humanity during these processes? This is a tough thing. I have also had to lay people off. And so I've been on both ends of the spectrum, and I'm curious what your advice would be towards somebody who's going to have to make a tough decision because of a divestiture or acquisition or shutdown or even performance.
What kind of advice would you give a manager who needs to let someone go?
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question, because I understand the point. When it is a very large organization, how scalable is it right to have one on ones when you're talking about like 6700,000, like 1000 people layoffs? Right. That is very difficult. And I also had to lay a couple of people off in the past and if I could go back and take the phrase out of my mouth that said, this is not personal as business. I know I've used it and I will never use that again going forward. Again, this is extremely personal to the person on the other end. So a couple of things I would say is if it is at all possible, try to do a one on one, give that person the dignity that has dedicated five years, six years, two months, whatever it is. They come to work, they give you their time, they give you a lot. A lot often is personal time as well, right? Like we tend to check emails in the evening or you're traveling for work, whatever that might be. If in any way you can do something more one on one to give them that privacy in such a delicate moment. I would highly advocate for that. Another thing I would say is, please again, get rid of that phrase. It's not personal, it's business. It is extremely personal to the person that is receiving this news. So to do away with that statement and extend be very honest about something like this is a rheoric decision. Unfortunately, your position is made redundant, whatever it is. But don't devalue what's happening by telling them again that this isn't personal and be prepared as well. I'm in Canada. As a Canadian, two of the instances I was involved in, the person in hrtaine started to discuss things like what would happen to my 401k.
We don't have a 401k. So on top of insult to injury, I'm talking to someone that knows nothing about what should be said to me and local labor laws. So that really added to the frustration to have to interject and say, that doesn't apply to me.
Again, be prepared when you're coming to those calls.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great.
It's so interesting because you mentioned the phrase, it's not personal, it's business.
And it's really funny because that particular phrase was also used during my layoff and I tried to come to embrace it. And by that I mean I started separating myself, my value in who I was, from my career and from my current employer or employment situation. So, Karen, you are not a marketer. Karen, you are a mom and a friend and a sister. You are employee number 5981. A and so somehow that phrase actually helped me see myself as truly, this sees me as a number and not as a human, but that liberated me into a very different work life balance afterwards. And by that, I mean the long hours that were absolutely unnecessary, the overworking, the overinvestment, the simply caring too much. I learned quickly that they don't care about me as much as I cared about them. And so there was this deep personalization process that I was able to go through, and it really helped launch me into a different work approach. So I'd encourage anyone who has been told that phrase and is currently struggling with their identity because of unemployment, that you are not a salesperson, you are not a doctor. You are Karen, you are a brother, a friend, a neighbor, a global citizen, a tennis player, a choir singer. I think we need to readjust how we're identifying ourselves and invest in what really matters and see our employment as really a way to live and not a reason to live.
That's my preach message for all you. That's really helped me and also some of my friends and family who have gone through the same well.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: And I think that phrase, for me, I think of it as almost like the easy out. Right. Instead, I would be transparent with the person you're talking to. This is a workforce. You know, this is a reorg. This is a reduction. We looked at titles, and unfortunately, you know, your role is no longer but, but to hang your hat on saying, oh, it's not personal, almost feels like you're letting them off the hook. Oh, you didn't have to. You know, this isn't a personal decision. It's just business. But I feel like, again, that lets them off the hook as instead of truly, what is the reason I'm being let go? Let's talk about that. I don't want to lessen the blow for you by saying something with that kind of just catch all phrase that, oh, there, see, it's just. It's not personal. It's good. Here you go. And here's, you know, your package, and off you go. You know, I almost equate it to when you were younger. And you'd say that phrase, you know, it's not you, it's me.
Yeah, those young breakups. But again, I just find those are easy phrases, and we throw them out there like they don't have an impact. But when you're sitting across and getting that news, it is impactful. So instead, be honest, be more open, don't hide behind cliche phrases, and be prepared that you're delivering this news to someone that, again, it can be very devastating for the person on the receiving end. Are they the sole breadwinner? Are they a single mother? You know, how close are they in age to retirement? Is this going to impact what they're thinking is kind of the, you know, the end of role before I retire? Just again, to take some of that into consideration.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Tara, you shared with me a really cool story of how someone did show some humanity during this process about when you were in the middle of trying to move homes. Do you want to share that story with our listeners?
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Yes, I would love to. Like I had mentioned previously, you could see the writing was on the wall a little bit. I had newly started an organization, had only worked there about 60, 90 days, and the company was acquired. So I'm pretty low on that totem pole under my belt. And we did a very quick intro. I met the person that did my exact role, excuse me, so completely redundant role. She was marvelous. Very tenured at the organization there. Seven years. Nothing but great things to say about her. She was great. And we started to hear the rumbling.
The company was very transparent that, yes, they are looking at roles. They are looking at what's going to be like. How does this company look moving forward? So they were transparent that they were reviewing it. The employees know anyway. So again, be honest, be open with that communication. And no, they don't come right out and say, we've got layoffs coming. Right. But they did say, you know, we are evaluating, and this is part of how we determine the best go forward for the. My husband and I were in the process of buying our dream home, and it really hinged on my, obviously, my employment. Many banks don't just give you a home if you don't have a secure employment.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: True.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: So I sat with my husband and said, I've got nothing to lose. I'm going to reach out to my new boss and outline for him, my situation. So I sat down, was very honest in my email. I said, you know, we're in the process of buying a home. It is our dream home. Any disruption to my employment here is going to cause us to lose the house. So I didn't just put it all on that person. I said, here are three scenarios. I'm hoping we could choose one of the three, assuming I'm on the list. Right. Of those that are likely to be let go. If you could please work with me on this again, we would greatly appreciate it. Happy to maneuver a little bit. And almost immediately, the man was online when I sent it, because I sent it in the evening, I got the most amazing response, and it just warms my heart to this day. And he said, tara, let's get you that house.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: And. And he did. He worked with me. I got on a call. He made time for me the next day, if you can imagine, and said, you're right. The position. You know, your lack of seniority plus the position. Right. Chances are we're not finalized, but chances are this role will be made redundant. Let's look at these. Which one makes the most sense for you? And he worked with me on that, and we got the house.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: And we're in it. That's where I am.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Wow. What. What a great leader. Shout out to that person.
Let's all be leaders like that if we have the opportunity to. It's such a story of hope during such a terrible situation. So I do love that. Tara, what are some of the things that colleagues can do when their staff, their people that they work with on a regular basis, experience a layoff? I have found that there's a lot of different ways people react. What would you suggest?
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. And again, going through it a few times, I know what I have found incredibly helpful. As much as you appreciate the support with words like thinking of you, company's crazy. How can they. How can they lose you? If there's anything you need, let me know.
That really puts that last one in particular really puts more onus right on the person that is already dealing with a lot. You let me know what you need instead. I would challenge those to be proactive. Reach out. Write a reference. Right. Hey, you don't have me on your LinkedIn. Here's a testimonial I wrote for you. Go ahead and make it live. If you're comfortable to do that. Or a reference letter. Hey, I wrote this reference letter for you. Use it however you see fit. But I wanted to make it available for you should you need it. Looking at your LinkedIn contact list, who is in here? That I think would be a really good introduction for this person. Don't ask if they want the introduction yet. Go ahead and write a letter that shows what the intro would look like. Reach out to the person that's just been impacted by the job loss and say, hey, I've got these individuals in my contact list on LinkedIn. Here's a letter I would like to introduce you. You let me know when you're ready to do that. Even just a coffee.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Right?
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Say, why don't we meet at coffee shop ABC at this time? And don't be afraid to talk to them about work, showing that you're still valuing the opinion that they likely would have given you still when they were still there. But giving that person something tangible, something concrete that helps kind of take off their plate right as they're going through so much, proactively give them that support and it really means a lot.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Agreed. I love that advice. Proactively get that LinkedIn recommendation going or whatever platform you're using in your profession. Definitely looking at your list of contacts. And you can say, Tara, when I, when you are ready, I have some contacts at some great organizations I might be able to introduce you to if you're interested. And normally you have to shake off the shock and kind of reassess and figure out what your next steps will be. But many times people get introduced to new organizations because of somebody they know.
And so here's my challenge to all of our listeners is don't be the person who doesn't make the intro. Now, obviously, you need to believe in them and their skills. And I understand your reputation can be measured by who you're recommending. But if it's truly someone who is talented, be the person who proactively says, hey, I'm going to introduce you to HR. Let's get your resume on file. We don't even have anything in PR right now, but we might. And I'm going to say what comes around goes around with this kind of stuff. And I have seen some real gems out there do this for people, and it's made a big difference. So I encourage you to walk alongside your former colleagues who hopefully also became friends in some way and give them a lending hand, because communities are small and it is likely that one day you or a friend of yours or a spouse or a partner might be laid off. So be the person who makes the step in the right direction, because one day you'll need that, too.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: 100%. Yep.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: I had a couple of other questions for you, going back to my experience of, of feeling quite angry and rage, if I'm going to put it that way, you have interestingly pivoted to a new business based on all your experiences in the last decade. Can you tell us about that?
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Yes. So I like your use of the word rage.
My company that I started is called Ragebox the way it started Washington. You know, you mentioned, and I had also mentioned, you get that we're going to send you a box, right, to pack up your company equipment and ship it back.
[00:27:18] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: And when that happened to me the last two times, the time before, I thought, you know, I'd really like to send a little something out to, you know, my team that was impacted. What can I send them? So, you know, I'm googling stuff. I didn't feel right about sending flowers or chocolates. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's definitely a time and place. But I, it just felt almost like I would be making light of the situation that happened. So instead I wrote a nice email, did some of those proactive things we talked about, and then the last round, similarly, I was thinking, what can I send to people? And I was just really lost at what was available. I'm googling job loss and googling different products and nothing was coming up. Nothing that really resonated with me. And at the same time, I suddenly get this email that outlines your box has been shipped to ship back your company equipment. And I thought back to all the times I received that email and I kind of laughed to myself and I thought, I know what I'd like to ship you back.
A little more diplomatic. Maybe those weren't the exact words in my head, but we'll clean it up. I'm like, I know what I'd like to ship back. And that's when it hit me. I thought a box filled with some of the mischievous thoughts, right? Some of the fun, kind of darker themed things. So I create a rage box and we create products and experiences that are for fans of the dark and mischievous. So we have products like themes like true crime horror stories. We do a special series around astrology that we've called horror scopes. Right. Again, highlighting kind of the darker, mischievous side and the one that started at all. So it's the, the gift box that is near and dear to my heart is the job loss gift box. And in that we have a bit of fun but also offer comfort. So there's a really nice booklet that's got inspirational stories in it as well as a couple of kind of petty revenge stories that'll make you chuckle.
We've got, you know, a fake stress hammer in there. Anyway, we've had curated a lot of different products to help hopefully ease some of the, you know, pain, discomfort, things that go along with losing your job and hopefully give them a little moment of reprieve. And.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So are these curated boxes that are designed to be given as a gift.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Gift or for yourself? Treat yourself.
So, yes, there's, there's products you can buy individually as well. We do sell individual products, but the real anchor for the store is our gift boxes. So in that, based on the theme, there's a booklet that discusses true crime that talks about a true crime journey. Each usually contains a piece of art. There's a rage doll that we've created. That is, I don't know if you remember. Do you remember dream dolls that you'd tell night if you had a bad dream and you'd put them under your pillow?
[00:30:18] Speaker A: No, I don't.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: That's a canadian thing.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: It could be. It could be.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: So a rage doll is, like, our unofficial mascot, and you tell Raj doll all of your problems and frustrations, and then you hang them outside on your tree and you let all of that blow away. But the job loss box in particular, it really is the cornerstone of the company. Rage box came from how enraged when I got that text in particular, and then again, looking for something that was a little different. Right? A little darker, a little more mischievous. Yeah.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's really cool. That sounds. That sounds like such a unique thing to receive, too. You're right. It doesn't feel, you know, flowers and plants and that kind of stuff. I don't. That just doesn't feel like the right vibe for trying to support someone with a gift, if that's the way you're going to support somebody. You know, one of the things that I have learned in my experience, and I'm curious if you experience the same, is that have each one of these layoffs, these, I'll call them doors closed for you, opened new and better doors, new and better opportunities. Has it always worked out for you?
[00:31:43] Speaker B: To be completely honest, yes, it has. Each time, as devastated as I was and thinking, in some cases, you know, I worked with such a great team and such a great group, I don't know how I'm ever going to top this experience. And that certainly wasn't the goal. I wasn't looking like, let me top the last one. Let me top the last one. But truly, every step after, right from the very first layoff as a flight attendant, things have always turned out better.
That's the only way to put it. They turned out better in the case of Ragebox.
Again, I don't know that I would have left the last organization. I was invested. I was invested in my team.
I had very long term plans within the organization. I don't know that I would have left, but leaving or being. Or being asked to leave, but leaving has really, again, this has turned into Ragebox, and we're already seeing such great support and early successes with the company. And I don't know that I would have started again if it wasn't for the fact that I lost this job. And each one really helped shape. Like, similar to when you were saying, now you look at your balance differently and how you identify within an organization, which I think is so important that your listeners hear that each one shaped me a little more. Right. Like, going into the next one, you're thinking, I've got to watch that personal investment, right. And not let it bleed so much into personal time. Or, you know, as a leader, what really worked with this group. As you come into the new organization, you can take those learnings, right, and uplevel them. So I learned them here now I brought them to here right, in the next organization and so on. But truly and in all honesty, each thing after each layoff has been bigger and better. And so in the end, I'm actually grateful.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a story of hope.
I feel like that is the experience of most of my colleagues, friends, family members who have experienced this. But it's not the kind of platitude that you serve up after. It's for a reason. It's going to be better. That just doesn't land. But reflecting back there feels like there is always purpose and even an elevated goal or whatever the opportunity comes next, it seems like it always just works out.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: And I know it can be hard for anyone that's listening if they're in the throes of it, maybe fresh off a layoff or a reduction of some kind, or you're struggling to find employment, goodness knows. Right. It's not always easy, and it can be really hard to hear someone say, it'll be better and it'll be bigger. But truly similar to you. In my experiences and people that I've spoken to, it does turn out better. That door was closed, and you're on to bigger and better things.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. If you think back, Tara, to your most challenging layoff, the one that rocked you the most, if you could talk to that Tara right now and give her some words of advice and encouragement, what would you say?
[00:35:13] Speaker B: The last one was the hardest.
We as an organization had gone through so many changes. We had two companies merged together to form one. I worked very hard to try to mitigate any impact on my team. I created different scenarios and presented them to executives and how I thought we could merge the teams together without reducing headcounts. And it got deeply personal for me. And so getting the lists of texts of names, each one truly hit me. Oh, no, not this person. Oh, no, not this person. And I almost felt guilty for being upset for myself. Right. As a leader of a team and seeing your team torn apart, you feel that to your core. And so what I would say to the terra sitting in the hotel room, unfortunately, getting this news is you can be upset. You can be upset, too. And it's okay to feel upset for your team, but it's okay for you. You were their leader. You did everything you could. Now you can also take the time to heal around what's happened to you.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: I love that it's just a little bit more grace and it's okay not to be okay. Exactly kind of thing.
[00:36:41] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. And you can't fix it for everyone. Right? As the leader of the team, I always approached as a servant leader. I'm there to serve the team. What can I do? You know, I used to laugh the block and tackle, right? Let me block and tackle so that you guys can be successful. Right? And then we're all working towards a common goal. But my role is to make you successful and make sure that you're not getting, you know, hit with any hurdles or me trying to alleviate them as much as possible. But when you get that news and you see again the names, you, you can't save everybody at that point. The best you can do is as a person, reach out, be proactive, you know, help in all the ways that we talked about earlier. But it's okay for you to sit there and be upset. It's okay to not be okay. And you don't have to put on a brave face for everybody else. It's okay to be upset.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: Yeah. If folks are interested in poking around your ragebox options, what is the best way for them to find you?
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Ragebox.com our logo is also our URL, ragebox.com dot. And then I'm also available. And one of the things I like to talk about, because now I'm in the throes of it, is also so entrepreneurial ship what it's like to start up a business and the challenges. So there is also contact
[email protected] that gets monitored very closely so they can reach out that way and find me there as well. But please do visit all our rage filled products on rageflows.com dot.
[00:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, Tara, thank you so much for coming today to bring our listeners a blueprint of really how to support and or go through and or let go somebody in a way that brings dignity and humanity to the process. I think this is a really important message that we can share with others, and you were the perfect person to do that. So thank you.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk about, and it's such an important topic. So thank you as well for giving it the air time that you are.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: We appreciate that, of course. Thanks, Tara.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: All right, bye now.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: And that brings us to the end of another episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Okay, so if you haven't already, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss another episode. If you're loving what you hear. I would be incredibly grateful if you took just a moment to rate and review this show on your favorite podcast platform. It helps others discover us and it's a great place to share your thoughts, suggestions, and ideas for future episodes. For even more exclusive content and detailed show notes, check out our website at 3504 DoT. And that's spelled out 3564 dot. As always, a huge, huge thank you for spending time with me today during this episode. I appreciate that you tuned in. I'm going to leave you the same way I do every episode. Remember, it's not too late. You're not too old, and you're definitely not dead. Okay? Until next time, friends.
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